Crafting Revamp

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Katheraine
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by Katheraine » 02 Jun 2017, 17:50

I've said this before and happy to say it again just so Fraggermuffin doesn't feel like he's on a solo rant notwithstanding Sathias' suggestion for silence and that is that I vastly prefer the crafted belt over the loot belt. I don't go get enough loot to even find a loot belt for starters, whereas I know several people capable of making the crafted belts.

I like the gloves too but would not miss them as much as the belts.

I appreciate you seem to have a vision, but it is pretty important to be honest and acknowledge whether this is for the benefit of all?
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André Axe'm
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by André Axe'm » 02 Jun 2017, 18:54

Should whatever we end up doing not work out, I will of course collect data and make corrections. I'm not on a one off contract here...

One problem with the belts that I may not have elaborated enough on is that because they are treated as the standard go to for both Fear and Death immunity, they are basically the only option for Fear and Death immunity. This means that you end up having to use one of those belts. It has become a no choice situation.

I am not currently happy with the Belt of Vim not getting Death immunity until superlative level and am looking into reorganising its progression.
I'm also looking into squeezing another option for each immunity in somewhere, and possibly another Freedom of Movement too.
Alternatively I could keep the Fortitude/Reflex/Will save belt split, give them better saves and their own immunities, but I wouldn't want to drop the Glittering Girdle so that would be a lot of belts!

It is fairly likely that a few of the removed items will be added to the loot tables so people can get some nostalgia value.

Adding some of these properties to the Forge Runes is also likely to happen.
Katheraine wrote:
02 Jun 2017, 17:50
I appreciate you seem to have a vision, but it is pretty important to be honest and acknowledge whether this is for the benefit of all?
I tend to be overly bluntly honest and I'm not sure how anyone could not benefit from this?
I'm certainly not getting anything more than a headache and a lot of work to do.
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Fraggermuffin
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by Fraggermuffin » 02 Jun 2017, 20:11

André Axe'm wrote:
02 Jun 2017, 18:54
I'm also looking into squeezing another option for each immunity in somewhere, and possibly another Freedom of Movement too.
That would alleviate a lot of my concern with losing the belts. The other issue is the Mythic Upgrade to the belts you have moved to Shields. It would be nice if it wasn't just for shield users. That is a pretty limited set of characters. No Monks, Dual-wielders, Arcane Casters, Two-Handed Weapon users. Maybe move it to Robes as well?
André Axe'm wrote:
02 Jun 2017, 18:54
Saying that a temporary effect running out kills you is hyperbole.
Is it hyperbole if it has happened half a dozen times? Are you saying that you've never had a buff run out mid combat?
Sathias wrote:
02 Jun 2017, 13:36
I would like to propose a compromise position with regards to disagreements over these crafting changes.

It is clear that most if not all participants in this thread agree on 95% of what has been proposed, there are just a few sticking points.
Compromise is usually when two parties meet somewhere in the middle - that's not what is happening here. We're not even meeting at 95%.
Sathias wrote:
02 Jun 2017, 13:36
Theorycrafting only goes so far.
You do realise that this whole update is theorycrafting, right? :P None of it has been tested. Comparing Edon to Hearthstone is like chalk and cheese. A multi million dollar game with a team of content testers vs Andre (and Alkarl?).
Katheraine wrote:
02 Jun 2017, 17:50
I've said this before and happy to say it again just so Fraggermuffin doesn't feel like he's on a solo rant
Thanks for the new sig! :D
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Blaegor
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by Blaegor » 02 Jun 2017, 21:59

Ok. My two cents :-

Keep the current crafted Belts! They are important and accessible to solo characters. I have a solo character who has not had the time to be in a party to successfully complete quests like Tulmags. She runs around killing things by herself mostly. She is not going to get the quest belt tulmaggs in any short time period and is currently wearing a Superior belt of Fort. I went out of my way to get the ingredients to make it.

I am with the "Solo Ranter" Dont change the dragon gloves or the crafted belts. By all means add some loot drop belts and after we have had both for some time, then we could make some informed choices about keeping them or not keeping them. At the moment we have no information about who/what/when would wear the looted belts vs the crafted ones. So perhaps lets make informed decisions based on evidence.

Thanks
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André Axe'm
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by André Axe'm » 03 Jun 2017, 18:13

Moar revisions!

Robes of the Shaper: Cloth Armour (Crafter friendly)
Lesser: +2 AC. +3 Craft Weapon/Armour. 5/+1 damage soak.
Medium: +4 AC. +5 Craft Weapon/Armour. 10/+2 damage soak. +1 all stats.
Greater: +6 AC. +7 Craft Weapon/Armour. 15/+3 damage soak. +1 all stats. Freedom of Movement.
Epic: +7 AC. +9 Craft Weapon/Armour. 20/+4 damage soak. +1 all stats. Freedom of Movement.
Mythic: +8 AC. +12 Craft Weapon/Armour. 25/+5 damage soak. +2 all stats. Freedom of Movement.

Dragon Scale Armour: Scale Mail (Now with added fear immunity and mythic element upgrades)
Lesser: +2 AC. SR 10. 5/- Fire/Cold/Acid/Elec Resist.
Medium: +4 AC. SR 16. 10/- Fire/Cold/Acid/Elec Resist.
Greater: +6 AC. SR 24. 15/- Fire/Cold/Acid/Elec Resist. Fear Immunity.
Epic: +7 AC. SR 32. 20/- Fire/Cold/Acid/Elec Resist. Fear Immunity.
Earth: +8 AC. SR 32. 20/- Fire/Cold/Acid/Elec Resist. Fear Immunity. 25% Acid Immunity. Knockdown Immunity.
Air: +8 AC. SR 32. 20/- Fire/Cold/Acid/Elec Resist. Fear Immunity. 25% Elec Immunity. Haste.
Water: +8 AC. SR 32. 20/- Fire/Cold/Acid/Elec Resist. Fear Immunity. 25% Cold Immunity. Improved Evasion.
Fire: +8 AC. SR 32. 20/- Fire/Cold/Acid/Elec Resist. Fear Immunity. 25% Fire Immunity. 3xday Elemental Shield.

Mirror Armour: Full Plate (More of a magic resist feel and the current belt upgrades)
Lesser: +2 AC. 5/- Sonic Resist.
Medium: +4 AC. 10/- Sonic Resist. Immunity to Death Magic.
Greater: +6 AC. 15/- Sonic Resist. Immunity to Death Magic. 5/- Magical Resist.
Epic: +7 AC. 20/- Sonic Resist. Immunity to Death Magic. 10/- Magical/Positive/Negative Resist.
Celestial: +8 AC. 20/- Sonic Resist. Immunity to Death Magic. 10/- Magical/Positive/Negative Resist. +25% positive energy immunity. Immunity to Mind Spells.
Abyssal: +8 AC. 20/- Sonic Resist. Immunity to Death Magic. 10/- Magical/Positive/Negative Resist. +25% negative energy immunity. Immunity to Level/Stat Drain.

Belt of Vim: Armour Crafting. (Swapped the Poison Immunity and the Death Magic Immunity around (Might make the immunities earlier and the con bonus later in next revision))
+0: +1 Fortitude save.
+1: +2 Fortitude save. Disease Immunity.
+2: +3 Fortitude save. +1 Con. Disease Immunity.
+3: +4 Fortitude save. +2 Con. Disease Immunity.
+4: +5 Fortitude save. +2 Con. Disease Immunity. Death Magic Immunity.
Superior: +6 Fortitude save. +3 Con. Disease Immunity. Death Magic Immunity.
Peerless: +7 Fortitude save. +4 Con. Disease Immunity. Death Magic Immunity.
Superlative: +8 Fortitude save. +4 Con. Disease Immunity. Death Magic Immunity. Poison Immunity.
Mythic: +10 Fortitude save. +5 Con. Disease Immunity. Death Magic Immunity. Poison Immunity.

Glittering Girdle: Tailoring. (Now with some spells)
+0: Light 5m.
+1: Light 5m. +1 Chr. -5% Spell Failure.
+2: Light 10m. +2 Chr. -5% Spell Failure.
+3: Light 10m. +3 Chr. -10% Spell Failure.
+4: Light 15m. +4 Chr. -10% Spell Failure. 1/day Aura of Glory.
Superior: Light 15m. +5 Chr. -15% Spell Failure. 1/day Aura of Glory.
Peerless: Light 20m. +6 Chr. -15% Spell Failure. 2/day Aura of Glory.
Superlative: Light 20m. +7 Chr. -20% Spell Failure. 2/day Aura of Glory. 1/day Mass Blindness Deafness.
Mythic: Light 20m. +7 Chr. -25% Spell Failure. 3/day Aura of Glory. 2/day Mass Blindness Deafness.

Boots of Insight: Tailoring. (Now with Fear Immunity)
+0: +1 AC, +1 Reflex Save
+1: +2 AC, +1 Wis, +1 Reflex Save, +3 Lore
+2: +2 AC, +1 Wis, +2 Reflex Save, +3 Lore
+3: +3 AC, +2 Wis, +2 Reflex Save, +6 Lore
+4: +3 AC, +2 Wis, +3 Reflex Save, +6 Lore, Fear Immunity
Superior: +4 AC, +3 Wis, +3 Reflex Save, +9 Lore, Fear Immunity
Peerless: +4 AC, +3 Wis, +4 Reflex Save, +9 Lore, Fear Immunity
Superlative: +5 AC, +4 Wis, +4 Reflex Save, +12 Lore, Fear Immunity, Premonition 3/Day
Mythic: +6 AC, +5 Wis, +4 Reflex Save, +12 Lore, Fear Immunity, Premonition 3/Day


BTW: "Removal" from the module means that I'll comment out the recipes in the scripts, not delete them or the items.
Should everything fall apart, it will take about 5 minutes to restore all the "removed" items.

WTH?: For some reason the Greater Belt of Guiding Light is missing from the loot tables. :/
No idea how that happened. This will be rectified shortly...

For recipes I'm currently thinking we can cut out the Superior and Peerless ones, and keep the Superlative ones as 'hard to get' ingredient.

I totally understand resistance to the removal of certain items. But I do think these particular items are causing a few issues and should be replaced. I am working to ensure that you can still cover any particular build weaknesses with the final items.
Might I suggest people try some outfit theory crafting with the proposed new equipment? It would actually be quite helpful for me to get a better idea of the impact of these changes.
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Blaegor
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by Blaegor » 03 Jun 2017, 19:06

André Axe'm wrote:
03 Jun 2017, 18:13

I totally understand resistance to the removal of certain items. But I do think these particular items are causing a few issues and should be replaced. I am working to ensure that you can still cover any particular build weaknesses with the final items.
Which items are causing what issues exactly?? and rather than "Theory Craft" Can we not have both for a period of time to do actual testing?
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Sathias
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by Sathias » 03 Jun 2017, 19:52

IMO In effect that is what we will have when the new system is in place, being that the old items won't be disappearing... I'm planning to make some of the removed items to put in my store, the capitalist in me speaking :)
Katheraine wrote:
02 Jun 2017, 17:50
I've said this before and happy to say it again just so Fraggermuffin doesn't feel like he's on a solo rant notwithstanding Sathias' suggestion for silence and that is that I vastly prefer the crafted belt over the loot belt.
Just to be clear I'm not after silence, just looking to stop the thread from getting antsy, as it has a few times already. Feedback welcome :thumbup:
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Falstar
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by Falstar » 03 Jun 2017, 19:57

I think the main effect on belt usage will be to push 90% of the (non-crafting) playerbase to using the Maitaph Belt. Not sure if that's the outcome you're really looking for?
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André Axe'm
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by André Axe'm » 03 Jun 2017, 20:27

That does seem like an improvement over 100% of the player base not using it... >_>
But are you suggesting that 90% of the (non-crafting) player base won't be able to get a different belt, or that they won't want to?
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Fraggermuffin
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by Fraggermuffin » 03 Jun 2017, 21:14

Do we need the +0 versions of a lot of these items? Seems like we could save room there. I can't really see them being used by low level characters too much.

I would like to see the current celestial/abyssal belt upgrades put on something that all characters can use. I think you've just got them on shields and armour for the update? Could it be made into a Rune that was restricted to Robes? Or Rings?

I like that you have given more options for Fear and Death Magic Immunity. If there were more of these options then maybe people wouldn't be using the existing belts as so much of a crutch. Who knows, they might even move away from them even if you don't delete them.

Could I suggest that anything with the word "Dragon" in the title be given Fear Immunity? If you read the flavour text on Dragon Slippers it makes sense.

It will take a while to work out what is best for each character to mix and match items with the new gear. A little daunting! But that is a good thing.
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André Axe'm
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by André Axe'm » 03 Jun 2017, 21:19

I'll be checking what the required levels of things are before committing to removing the +0s.
I would like to cut the number of levels down on every crafted line, but I'm not sure if that will be a hassle for crafters trying to level.
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Falstar
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by Falstar » 03 Jun 2017, 21:21

I'm currently using the Maitaph Belt over a crafted belt, so you're a bit off there. I'm not sure how many people have finished that quest yet, but if it is only 4 players so far, that's a 25% usage right there. ;) It would probably be 50 - 75% usage between the 4 of us who completed the Quest chain.

I don't know what the costs will be on these belts yet, but if it entails Peerless and Superlative gems, I would consider them too expensive to bother with. Because it does not give Fear immunity, I would consider Maitaph to be superior for my playstyle tastes. I don't think an extra +1 stat (at Mythic!!) outweighs the loss of Fear immunity. People value Fear immunity highly because the Fear effect is *extremely annoying*. Plus, if you're hunting solo, it will generally mean being feared = death. Disease and poison immunity is also pretty weak. I simply would not use a Vim belt over Maitaph (or the current belts available).

The only thing Maitaph does not allow (and this is probably a big sticking point for a lot of players) is for it to be runed. At some later stage, that would become a much larger consideration for me, but as I currently have very few runes, it's not such a big deal.

I would say though that the Glittering Girdle looks quite interesting, because it offers something unique (spell failure penalty reduction). This is a good addition, IMO. There is a real trade-off there, and I think it could be quite popular for Sorcerers and the like.
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André Axe'm
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by André Axe'm » 03 Jun 2017, 21:42

I was referring to the older version of the Maitaph belt.

So Fortitude is valueless?

Also, would you still use Maitaph's belt if you had another source of Fear and/or Death Magic Immunity?
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Falstar
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by Falstar » 03 Jun 2017, 23:50

André Axe'm wrote:
03 Jun 2017, 21:42
I was referring to the older version of the Maitaph belt.
The older version is irrelevant, given it's now been updated. But I was still using that version on this server until it was updated and a DM kindly swapped the old for the new.
André Axe'm wrote:
03 Jun 2017, 21:42
So Fortitude is valueless?
Nope. But it is easy to obtain through Runes.
André Axe'm wrote:
03 Jun 2017, 21:42
Also, would you still use Maitaph's belt if you had another source of Fear and/or Death Magic Immunity?
It really depends. If the other belts were costless, then I would consider it. But it would have to be a permanent source. If it cost an arm and a leg, and I had to make use of items that I would otherwise not use to gain the immunities, then I would still go with Maitaph.
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Fraggermuffin
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by Fraggermuffin » 04 Jun 2017, 09:44

I don't think either of the new belt Mythic Upgrades are all that great. Probably not worth investing a Superlative Gem into. Is there only going to be two new belts? Glittering Girdle and Vim? The current Abyssal/Celestial upgrades would be a more tempting option to upgrade your suggested belts.
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André Axe'm
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by André Axe'm » 04 Jun 2017, 10:14

Probably going to add about 4 regen to the Vim belt.
Unsure about the Girdle. Being able to get +7 Chr from a different slot is significant and the arcane failure reduction is almost unique. :/
Its all WIP.

So a Paladin with a Titanium shield would still be using a Maitaph belt?
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Fraggermuffin
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by Fraggermuffin » 04 Jun 2017, 10:54

The regen would be nice!

On the subject of regen, are you removing it from the dragon helms? If so, why?
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André Axe'm
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by André Axe'm » 04 Jun 2017, 12:34

Dragons aren't known for regenerative powers.
Wanted a bit more stat variety.
It was a weak value which you can add with a rune anyway.
Will possibly add it back if we can't find a good power level from more flavourful stats.
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André Axe'm
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by André Axe'm » 04 Jun 2017, 13:41

A small theory craft regard optimal belt choices after potential redesign for generalised builds:

Arcane Caster:
Fear Immunity options: Self cast Mindblank spells. Crown of Focussing (semi off stat for Chr casters (But then the Gloves of Sorcery are semi off stat for Wizards)).
Death Magic Immunity options: Sorcerers/Bards could use the Glittering Girdle and a Titanium Buckler and still have 0% spell failure. Belt of Vim (when we work out some decent stats) should also be a good option as it covers an arcane casters general fragility weakness.

Divine Caster:
Fear Immunity options: Boots of Insight and Dragon Scale armour.
Death Magic Immunity options: Self cast Death Ward. Titanium shields. Mirror Armour. Belt of Vim.

Fighter:
Fear Immunity options: Dragon Scale armour. Dragon Helm if you are tough enough to survive until it wears off. Monks get immune to mind effects.
Death Magic Immunity options: Titanium shields. Mirror Armour. Belt of Vim.
Paladins have innate Fear Immunity and can cast Death Ward.

Rogue:
Fear Immunity options: Dragon Helm and/or Gauntlets + Slippery Mind will work almost all the time.
Death Magic Immunity options: Titanium buckler. Belt of Vim. Wand of Death Ward with a bit of UMD.

Backup/general options:
Belts of Guiding Light are a early level backup for immunity holes, and the new Epic version will have caster friendly stats.
The Tullmaggs belt line is basically non caster statted. (Please stop telling me it can't be runed, or I will have to start blatantly clue batting about there being another upgrade past Maitaph to balance the lack of runage.)
Potions of Lesser Mindblank and a future Wand of Death Ward are decent if you watch it and have decent saves.
Caster party members can also be good.

Does this make anyone feel a little more comfortable?
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Fraggermuffin
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by Fraggermuffin » 04 Jun 2017, 13:57

André Axe'm wrote:
04 Jun 2017, 12:34
Dragons aren't known for regenerative powers.
Are there any dragons in Edon without regen?
André Axe'm wrote:
04 Jun 2017, 12:34
It was a weak value
I'm not sure many players would agree with that, with the exception of crafters that don't get out of the workshop. From the "What item stats do you like thread" the people that responded rated it highly.

While Darkvision and bonuses to skills might seem flavourful, they don't provide a lot of value IMO. Regen, on the other hand, is very important.

Just out of curiosity, what sort of builds did you have on the last server that made it into the mythic levels? I'm trying to understand why we have such different opinions on what is good.
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André Axe'm
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by André Axe'm » 04 Jun 2017, 18:08

Misty Blues, Dracoliches, pre epic dragons, and Singe (lol) all have no regen.
The other have values ranging from 2 to 6.
Actual values for the curious:
Hell Wurms: 6.
Ancient Shadow Wyrm: 6.
Kloxar: 5.
Thraknar: 5.
Maitaph: 4.
Nailo Crypt one: 4.
Milath: 2.
Prismatic: 4.
Priska: 5.
Myth Olin Brass: 3.
Fire Blasted: 4.
Singe: 0.
Shadow: 4.
Ancient Shadow: 6.
Unga: 6.
Unger: 2.


Dragon Helm regen values:
Bard : 3.
Brawler: 3.
Cleric: 3.
Druid: 2.
Nimble: 2.
Sorcerer: 2.
Wizard: 3.
I say that is weak and inconsistent. What is this, a pre epic item???

I had a pure Druid, a Dragon Disciple Zerker and possibly a Mystic Theurge?
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Falstar
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by Falstar » 04 Jun 2017, 18:42

I would really love for you to make up a fresh solo character and take it from lvl 1 - 40 without any of the items you're considering removing or heavily nerfing. When you hit lvl 40, go dragon hunting, or have a run around the Mythic Jungle map and let us know how you get on. It might give you a better appreciation of the current server dynamics.

Also, I think all the SR you're introducing pretty much makes any class abilities (or racial bonuses) that give SR completely redundant.
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Alkarl
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by Alkarl » 04 Jun 2017, 18:50

SR doesn't stack
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Falstar
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by Falstar » 04 Jun 2017, 18:55

I know it doesn't stack.
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Sathias
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Re: Crafting Revamp

Post by Sathias » 04 Jun 2017, 19:00

Falstar wrote:
04 Jun 2017, 18:42
I would really love for you to make up a fresh solo character and take it from lvl 1 - 40 without any of the items you're considering removing or heavily nerfing. When you hit lvl 40, go dragon hunting, or have a run around the Mythic Jungle map and let us know how you get on. It might give you a better appreciation of the current server dynamics.

Also, I think all the SR you're introducing pretty much makes any class abilities (or racial bonuses) that give SR completely redundant.
Except then you can wear items that don't give SR in that slot. As it stands one faction has access to constant racial SR and the others don't. I like the idea that as a Surfacer I'll be able to craft an item with good SR on it :idea:
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