Moar Crafted Item Revisions

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André Axe'm
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Moar Crafted Item Revisions

Post by André Axe'm » 27 Jan 2018, 15:22

...because looking at all of them at once is just too hard to do.

In this post you will find three parts!
Part 1 is a couple of proposed new items for consideration.
Part 2 is some revisions to some items which got skipped in the last revision.
Part 3 is asking for balance feedback about all the existing new items, as you've had a good chance to try them now.

Everything for discussion in this thread is not going to be in the update I'm still working on.

Part 1:

New item - Scroll of Recall:
Crafted in Scribing. Teleports you back to your home town after 30 seconds.
So quicker than re-logging before you complete the Wings quest, but won't save you in combat.

New item - Bard's Lute:
Crafted in Carpentry. A main hand 1d2 damage fashion accessory. Bard equivalent to a caster staff.

Bard's Lute +1: +2 Perform,
Bard's Lute +2: +1 Enhancement, +4 Perform,
Bard's Lute +3: +2 Enhancement, +6 Perform,
Enchanted Bard's Lute: +3 Enhancement, +8 Perform, +1 Chr, 1/day Sound Burst,
Superior Bard's Lute: +4 Enhancement, +10 Perform, +2 Chr, 2/day Sound Burst, 1/day Wounding Whispers,
Peerless Bard's Lute: +5 Enhancement, +12 Perform, +3 Chr, 3/day Sound Burst, 2/day Wounding Whispers, 1/day Cure Critical Wounds,
Superlative Bard's Lute: +6 Enhancement, +14 Perform, +4 Chr, 3/day Sound Burst, 3/day Wounding Whispers, 2/day Cure Critical Wounds, 1/day Greater Dispelling,
Mythic Bard's Lute: +7 Enhancement, +16 Perform, +5 Chr, 3/day Sound Burst, 3/day Wounding Whispers, 3/day Cure Critical Wounds, 2/day Greater Dispelling, 1/day Dirge,


Part 2:
While checking to see what stats were on caster staves, I discovered that the superlative upgrade was basically pointless and that things were a little inconsistent between types. So here is a proposed revision; 1 less stat point, no dubious mind save, useful skill added, less ridiculous pile of spells that you won't have room to quickslot anyway. Exact spells undecided at the moment. Possibly not enough spells, but with the Spellcraft change, they might actually be more useful now.

Combined Staff: +1 Enhancement, Dim Light
Improved Combined Staff: +2 Enhancement, Dim Light, +2 Concentration
Enchanted Staff: +3 Enhancement, Low Light, +4 Concentration, +1 stat, 3/day level 3 spell, 2/day level 4 spell, 1/day level 5 spell.
Superior Staff: +4 Enhancement, Low Light, +6 Concentration, +2 stat, 3/day level 4 spell, 2/day level 5 spell, 1/day level 6 spell.
Peerless Staff: +5 Enhancement, Normal Light, +8 Concentration, +3 stat, 3/day level 5 spell, 2/day level 6 spell, 1/day level 7 spell.
Superlative Staff: +6 Enhancement, Normal Light, +10 Concentration, +4 stat, 3/day level 6 spell, 2/day level 7 spell, 1/day level 8 spell.
Mythic Staff: +7 Enhancement, Bright Light, +12 Concentration, +5 stat, 3/day level 7 spell, 2/day level 8 spell, 1/day level 9 spell.

Also, you may have noticed that class armour stats seem a bit random, and the only upgrades you really care about are the AC and the stats, so here is a difficult to read revision. Again, these have 1 less stat point than before and much less spell activations, no pointless damage reduction or spell resistance, but some more skills, slots and REGENERATION!?!?!?! Possibly too much...

Cleric: +5/6/7/8 AC, +2/3/4/5 Fort, 2/3/4/5 Stoneskin per day, +2/3/4/5 Wis, +3/6/9/12 Conc/Lore, +1 lvl 6/7/8/9 slot.
Druid: +5/6/7/8 AC, +2/3/4/5 Fort, 2/3/4/5 Stoneskin per day, +2/3/4/5 Wis, +3/6/9/12 Conc/AnEm, +1 lvl 6/7/8/9 slot.
Sorcerer: +5/6/7/8 AC, +2/3/4/5 Fort, 2/3/4/5 Haste per day, +2/3/4/5 Chr, +3/6/9/12 Conc/Lore, +1 lvl 6/7/8/9 slot.
Wizard: +5/6/7/8 AC, +2/3/4/5 Fort, 2/3/4/5 Haste per day, +2/3/4/5 Int, +3/6/9/12 Conc/Lore, +1 lvl 6/7/8/9 slot.
Fighter: +5/6/7/8 AC, +2/3/4/5 Fort, 2/3/4/5 Stoneskin per day, +2/3/4/5 Str, +3/6/9/12 Disc, +1/2/3/4 Regen.
Toughness: +5/6/7/8 AC, +2/3/4/5 Fort, 2/3/4/5 Stoneskin per day, +2/3/4/5 Con, +3/6/9/12 Disc, +1/2/3/4 Regen.
Brawler: +5/6/7/8 AC, +2/3/4/5 Fort, 2/3/4/5 Haste per day, +2/3/4/5 Dex, +3/6/9/12 Disc, +1/2/3/4 Regen.
Monk: +5/6/7/8 AC, +2/3/4/5 Fort, 2/3/4/5 Haste per day, +2/3/4/5 Wis, +3/6/9/12 Disc, +1/2/3/4 Regen.
Rogue: +5/6/7/8 AC, +2/3/4/5 Fort, 2/3/4/5 Haste per day, +2/3/4/5 Dex/Int, +3/6/9/12 Open Lock/Disable Trap/Hide/Move Silently/Search.
Paladin: +5/6/7/8 AC, +2/3/4/5 Fort, 2/3/4/5 Stoneskin per day, +2/3/4/5 Chr, +3/6/9/12 Disc/Conc, +1 lvl 1/2/3/4 slot, +0/1/2/3 Regen.
Ranger: +5/6/7/8 AC, +2/3/4/5 Fort, 2/3/4/5 Haste per day, +2/3/4/5 Con, +3/6/9/12 Disc/AnEm, +1 lvl 1/2/3/4 slot, +0/1/2/3 Regen.
Bard: +5/6/7/8 AC, +2/3/4/5 Fort, 2/3/4/5 Haste per day, +2/3/4/5 Chr, +3/6/9/12 Perf/Conc/Taunt/Lore, +1 lvl 3/4/5/6 slot.
FavSoul: +5/6/7/8 AC, +2/3/4/5 Fort, 2/3/4/5 Stoneskin per day, +4/5/6/7 Chr/Con, +3/6/9/12 Conc, +1/1/2/2 per day Heal.
Warlock: +5/6/7/8 AC, +2/3/4/5 Fort, 2/3/4/5 Stoneskin per day, +4/5/6/7 Chr/Str, +3/6/9/12 Conc, +1/1/2/2 per day Harm.
Shaman: +5/6/7/8 AC, +2/3/4/5 Fort, 2/3/4/5 Haste per day, +4/5/6/7 Chr/Dex, +3/6/9/12 Conc, +1/1/2/2 per day Regenerate.
Psion: +5/6/7/8 AC, +2/3/4/5 Fort, 2/3/4/5 Haste per day, +4/5/6/7 Chr/Int, +3/6/9/12 Conc, +1/1/2/2 per day Lesser Mind Blank.
?/?/?/? indicates values for Superior/Peerless/Superlative/Mythic.
Spell slots add to the previous tiers slots. Everything else is a replacement.

The animal leather armours are being retained as alternatives like the Mirror/Dragon/Shaper armours and would be tweaked a bit too. However, I'm thinking they could possibly do with more of their own theme.

Legendary Tiger: +5/6/7/8 AC, +2/3/4/5 Fort, +4/5/6/7 Str/Dex, +3/6/9/12 Disc/Hide/Move Silently, +1/2/3/4 Regen?
Malar Panther: +5/6/7/8 AC, +2/3/4/5 Fort, +4/5/6/7 Dex/Con, +3/6/9/12 Disc/Hide/Move Silently, 10/20/30/40 Fire Resistance?
Polar Bear: +5/6/7/8 AC, +2/3/4/5 Fort, +4/5/6/7 Con/Str, +3/6/9/12 Disc/Hide/Move Silently, 10/20/30/40 Cold Resistance?


Part 3:
How are you finding all the new/revised items?
Are there any that you can't live without (meaning all your characters get outfitted the same which is boring), are there any you can't find a use for (properties no good, or are there better options?), or any that have rather non smooth upgrade progression?
Is anyone using the Wands or Poisons?
Do people still want the old crafted belts?
You can also just chime in if you are loving a particular item...
(However, I'd prefer not to look at rings for the moment. I know those are a mess, but let's not tackle every mess at once.)

My own notes suggest a few things might need a tweak:
Epic/Mythic Mirror Armour's could possibly have their AC dropped by 1 point to emphasise them being more about magical protection. Possibly Shaper Robes could also have a similar tweak. (Dragon Armour is already 1 AC lower than the other crafted medium armour options.)

Belts of Vim slightly OP? I've sold quite a few from my shop and every stat on them is good for almost every build.

Do Boots of Sneaking need a small buff? There was a bug in the recipe and it wasn't discovered until recently.

Are Elemental Weapons better than standard weapons? Or is it that too few enemies have basic levels of elemental resistance?

Is the Necklace of Magic Resistance OP? The downside of no AC can be easily dealt with and Greater Spell Mantle is a level 9 spell...

Does the Crown of Focussing need its progression redone? The Greater version is about 3 times the stats of the Lesser version, despite that being one upgrade step.
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vorly
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Re: Moar Crafted Item Revisions

Post by vorly » 27 Jan 2018, 23:12

Bit hard to read it all my phone but let’s have a crack.

Regenerate on shaman Armor I think is far too strong.

I don’t like Harm on Warlock, I feel it’s a cleric thing and for them to get free casts just feels urgh...would rather them throw around some fire spells to be honest. Not very useful though.

Belt of Vim is strong, there is no negative stat like there is on the reflex/fort/will belts and more Con I believe. Rather than nerfing it I think it would be better to drop the fort belt and bring the reflex and will belts in line by removing the negative to save.

The poison weapons are terrible, saying that, they are allowed to be wielded earlier than their crafted counterparts titanium and titanium-ada. This allows characters to acquire a keen weapon earlier that has a decent enhancement bonus until they can swap over to the more useful weapons.

Necklace of resistance superlative is the equivalent to caster lvl 26 spell resistance. I think it is strong for fighters weak for magic and utterly useless to divine casters. I’m undecided. I think it’s OP but I think it is a necessary item. Maybe do something about word of faith spam then change/get rid of this?

I like what you did with leather armour.

The crown of focus progression is borked, you can wear a +4 intel helm well before you get near +4 stat on CoF. For Anni I was just slowly working on it leaving it in the bag while
I wore the intel helm.

There is a drawback to wielding an elemental weapon. Unless you carry multiple your going to hit a mob type that the weapon does very poorly against. Not all elemental weapons are created equal either. Greater frost is peerless grade while greater lightning is superlative grade. I think of the 4 elements 2x are peerless the other two are superlative?

I’m not sure if you’ve changed the recipe yet but dragon armour needs to be looked at, going to greater is pretty harsh in terms of mats.

Anyway my quick thoughts on the matter.
Last edited by vorly on 27 Jan 2018, 23:24, edited 2 times in total.
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vorly
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Re: Moar Crafted Item Revisions

Post by vorly » 27 Jan 2018, 23:19

Oh, I think the 30second recall is far too long, I can get back easily in under 10 seconds. Maybe drop it to 15?
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André Axe'm
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Re: Moar Crafted Item Revisions

Post by André Axe'm » 28 Jan 2018, 10:42

Why is Harm wrong for Warlocks but Heal is okay for Favoured Souls? Warlocks do get the negative energy essences.

Why is the Regenerate on Shaman armour too strong? Its just a level 6 spell like Heal and Harm, and also vulnerable to dispel.

I may have to write some custom on hit code for the poison weapons, if it is refusing to inflict more than one hit.
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Fraggermuffin
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Re: Moar Crafted Item Revisions

Post by Fraggermuffin » 28 Jan 2018, 17:42

If the recall thing was something that required dialogue, then that would avoid escaping from combat, but allow a very quick port back to town.

Bard Lute - A nice idea, but there are so few Caster Bards that I'm not sure it is worthwhile. Any combat Bard would probably prefer a better damage weapon.

For the most part the idea of standardising all the armours is nice, but it also sort of makes them a bit boring. I always thought it was interesting having to choose between different items based on their different stat sets. A mythic upgrade to armours/robes would be good.

Haven't really looked at the leathers as they are kinda pointless IMO. Usually I either go all in on Dex with robes or Fullplate.

The rings are a mess, but were fine before the changes. Could we just have the old RoP recipes back while you sort that out?

Belt of Vim is definitely the best belt option atm. I like Vorly's suggestion of removing the negative save to the old belts.

The SR Necklace is good, but certainly no certainty in resisting spells. The Spell Mantle is not something I use often, as it takes time in combat to use and disappears pretty quickly if there is a couple of enemy spellcasters. Usually if you are a fighter you are better off just trying to knock down the casters instead of activating spell mantle.

Haven't used the other boots as they lag behind in stats. Durability all the way.

My Elemental Frost Sword deals more damage than a superlative sword. Although the elemental weapons are probably only good enough if you can cast Keen Edge. You kinda need a backup weapon in case things are immune to that element type too. Maybe the Superlative Swords could do with a small buff instead?
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vorly
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Re: Moar Crafted Item Revisions

Post by vorly » 28 Jan 2018, 18:16

In regards to favoured soul, they have a few healing essences so it’s not a stretch. There are 2 essences with negative damage on the warlock but the theme of their essences is fire. I didn’t say it was wrong, I just said I didn’t like it because it does fit my perception of a warlock.

With the changes to spellcraft, dispel cast from mobs I’ve found has been a lot harder to strip buffs, except from the highest tier mobs. A class already rediculous getting regen for free at max spellcraft, as opposed to others that need to dump skills in UMD and potentially won’t have as high a caster level or duration. I thinks unfair.

Currently the way poison weapons work, you get a chance at one of the debuffs on the weapon, once one is applied no more saving rolls occur. So you’re left with a lack lustre weapon unless you hot swap mid fight losing the rest of the round. It would be good if the debuff could be applied multiple times, stacking on itself. They still need to roll a 1 for it to occur.
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André Axe'm
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Re: Moar Crafted Item Revisions

Post by André Axe'm » 28 Jan 2018, 19:03

With the armours, I'm mostly standardising the values of the stats, which are a bit all over the place. I'm not sure how you find that interesting? Perhaps you meant the spell activations? Other than slightly different spells and inconsistent bonus values, they are already all the same.

Would Monstrous Regen be more acceptable on the Shaman Armour?
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Re: Moar Crafted Item Revisions

Post by Fraggermuffin » 28 Jan 2018, 19:57

Yeah, the stats is what I was talking about. Previously you had to go to the Emrys Emporium, have a good look, mix and match to get your +12's. It just becomes a lot more obvious if everything is the same value. Also, some of them currently give more than just +5 to stats at superlative, so you're talking about nerfing them.
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André Axe'm
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Re: Moar Crafted Item Revisions

Post by André Axe'm » 28 Jan 2018, 20:26

Well the stat types are staying the same, and I did explicitly state a -1 to most of them. However, there are more options available for getting stats with the new items, so I thought you'd be able to shoulder it.
Also, you just said that adding 3 regen to something was a nerf. :P

Basically the stat drop is so that they can still get a +1 stat upgrade for mythic level. I had a look at different options but it either ended up with an odd looking progression, or something that was barely worth the upgrade. There is a paradoxical diminishing returns effect on +stat items where once they go above a certain level, the bonus stat cap means they don't actually do anything. To clarify why I'm aiming for these specific values at mythic tier, consider the +12 cap. If you are going to hit this with 2 items, you would go with a superlative ring for +7 which means that anything above +5 is pointless. If you go with 3 items, you either aim for 3 +4s or 2 +5s and a +2 (although I think this ends up as a +3 for all mythic options). So just giving more +stat is basically a nerf because its something you can't benefit from.

Do you have any specific suggestions for making the armours less samey? I took most of the spells off to ensure they all had a decent baseline, but we could potentially give each armour a different extra spell activation.

And to show what I mean by inconsistent values on armours, this will save you a trip to the Emrys Emporium (sort of). The current stats of Superior Fullplates:
Superior Cleric: +5 AC, +3 Wis, +2 Fort, +12 Conc, 10 SR, +1 lvl 9 slot, 1/day Heal/Harm.
Superior Fighter: +5 AC, +3 Str, +1 Fort, +12 Disc, 10 SR, 5/+2 damage soak, 3/day Bull's Strength/Stoneskin.
Superior Paladin: +5 AC, +3 Chr, +6 Disc, 10 SR, 5/+1 damage soak, 3/day Stoneskin, +1 level 3/4 slot.
Superior Toughness: +5 AC, +4 Con, +2 Fort, 10 SR, 5/+1 damage soak, 3/day Clarity/Protection Elements/Stoneskin.
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Re: Moar Crafted Item Revisions

Post by Fraggermuffin » 28 Jan 2018, 21:02

Giving something regen is never a nerf. Removing regen is a nerf :P

I'm not sure inconsistent values are a problem, so long as the items are of relative power level (I'm not saying that they currently are equal at all). Inconsistency between items means that there is actually something to weigh up when deciding what items to use. If they are reasonably bog standard it becomes a lot more obvious. You just pick the one for the class.

Maybe instead of just having them all give +5 stats, have some give +6. Maybe the trade off is that the lower stat items have something like regen or a more powerful spell or higher skill bonuses/saves.

Currently Ranger and Rogue Robes are giving +7 to stats, Monk +6. Monk also gives Bull Str, Wis, Dex buffs, which is handy in maxing out the 4 stats that Monks can sometimes be pushed to achieve.
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Re: Moar Crafted Item Revisions

Post by André Axe'm » 28 Jan 2018, 22:06

We can do something like that. I really just wanted a standardised baseline to work from.
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Re: Moar Crafted Item Revisions

Post by André Axe'm » 29 Jan 2018, 12:43

Today's Random Thought:
I was after something unique for the animal leather armours to make them different to the standard class armours. So how about we flip the stats/regen around, so that the animal armours have regen but less stats bonuses and the class armours would not have regen but +1 more stat and some other spell activatables.
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Re: Moar Crafted Item Revisions

Post by André Axe'm » 31 Jan 2018, 20:41

Today's Random Thought:
Max potential AC from fullplate: 8 armour +1 dex = 9.
Max potential AC from chainmail: 5 armour +2 dex = 7.
2 less AC and requiring 2 more dex to reach maximum is bad.
Perhaps add an extra +1 AC enchantment to Chainmail?
Alternatively replace chainmail options with Scale Mail (4 armour + 4 dex = 8 )? Seems a bit much to expect 18 dex to get the most out of medium armour though.
Would Leather Armour options be more interesting with +1 extra AC? (2 armour + 6 dex = 8 ) 22 dex is a decent investment when you obviously aren't using it for AB, otherwise you would be using robes.

Why are the base armour stats a bit dodgy?
Last edited by André Axe'm on 01 Feb 2018, 12:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Moar Crafted Item Revisions

Post by André Axe'm » 31 Jan 2018, 21:37

Further Musings:
I could hack the base stats of the armours with a hak update. One of those should be happening soonish when I get around to doing a CEP update.
If we did that, I think Chain Mail should definitely at least be 6 base AC with a dex cap of 2.
Any further changes would depend on whether we wanted the AC sum to be 8 or 9 I suppose.
The cost of needing the dex for AC is sort of balanced out by needing the feats for heavy armour, so maybe that value should be more or less constant.

Another option would be to add an extra property to sub standard armours. I'm not sure what though, as most things are already covered by something else and there are major issues with things not stacking.
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Re: Moar Crafted Item Revisions

Post by Fraggermuffin » 31 Jan 2018, 23:10

I don't think all armours were created equal and I don't think they should be. A heavily armoured, full plate wearing paladin should have a lot better defence than a scale mail wearing barbarian with a bit of dex.

Adding other properties to make them more appealing would be a better way to go, IMO.
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