Mechanical Keyboards and Clickity Switches!

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Matty
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Mechanical Keyboards and Clickity Switches!

Post by Matty » 08 Jul 2016, 20:04

You're probably thinking of buckling spring keyboards, not Cherry MX keyboards.
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NotThatDoug
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Re: Show us your latest purchase - July 2016

Post by NotThatDoug » 09 Jul 2016, 09:16

and you can always buy an ass load of O rings to reduce the noise of Cherry switches, I've been thinking about doing it because while it doesn't bother me, the computer is in the lounge room and if I'm playing a game with a lot of keyboard actions or shit posting on here a bunch it does make a bit of noise that everyone else has to listen to.


https://www.amazon.com/Cherry-Rubber-Ri ... P6WEX5CWBH
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Re: Show us your latest purchase - July 2016

Post by phylum » 09 Jul 2016, 16:39

The mechanical keyboards with the worst clicking sound are the ones with MX Blue switches. Those actually have an artificial clicker in them, making them louder than they should be. The sound is horrible and uncessecary, but people love them for some reason. Probably because loud typing makes them feel pr0? I don't know.

As someone who types and codes a fair bit, mechanical keyboards make a huge difference to me. I find the mushy feeling of membrane keys really gets tiring very quickly. Mechanical keyboards are just easier and nicer to use, and it's very possible to muffle the noise if you don't like it! People have gone back to them, and for a good reason, especially in a world of scissor switch laptop keyboards :<
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Re: Show us your latest purchase - July 2016

Post by Matty » 09 Jul 2016, 16:59

It's not that it's an artificial clicker, is that the switch takes over after a certain point and finishes the key press for you.
Image

Apparently fantastic for typing, not so much for gaming. I type a lot so my next keyboard will be a blue but I'll have to work out some solution to use reds for games. I might just have to have 2 keyboards laying around my desk.
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Re: Show us your latest purchase - July 2016

Post by MuscularTeeth » 09 Jul 2016, 17:21

cool graphic, thanks for that matty.
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Re: Show us your latest purchase - July 2016

Post by phylum » 09 Jul 2016, 18:43

It isn't that the key finishes the key press, it's that the in tactile keys the key has a "bump" after the activation point and you end up bottoming it out. MX Browns have the same tactile mechanism as the blues, but without the clicking (the blues take a different amount of force though, presumably because of the different mechanism). This is different to linear switches, which have no "bump", and no feedback about where the activation point is. I like them (currently typing this on MX blacks) because you can be a bit more gentle, the keys don't always bottom out like with tactile switches.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure I've read that the white sleeve on the blue switches is actually the artificial clicker. Brown switches still have the tactile feel without that bit, at least. To the best of my knowledge the clicking was added as feedback that the keypress had registered.
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Re: Show us your latest purchase - July 2016

Post by Matty » 09 Jul 2016, 20:12

phylum wrote:It isn't that the key finishes the key press
Actually this is exactly what happens. It's not artificial, it completes the key press.
Mx browns have a tactile bump but still need to be depressed after the tactile bump to register the keystroke. You can feel this on your browns if you hover over the bump.
Image

Blue keys activate as soon you move over a tactile bump without any more input from the user. This is what makes them popular for typing, as you can (in theory at least) speed up your typing.

https://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Blue#Mechanism
https://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Brown

Tactile switches don't always bottom out, only the clicky switches do. Browns only bottom out if you push them hard enough like blacks or reds.
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Re: Show us your latest purchase - July 2016

Post by phylum » 09 Jul 2016, 21:29

Ok let's just clarify one thing - the keypress doesn't happen when the key bottoms out, it registers when the metal bits on the left hand side of the diagram make contact. The bump in the bit pushing the spring arm, be it brown or clear or any other colour, is the reason for the "bump" and then bottoming out. No switch actually forces you to bottom out though, but because of the sudden change of force in tactile ones the effect is generally users bottoming out their keys.

Take a look at a linear MX Red in action in contrast:
Image

No bump, smooth sailing up and down. You can easily hover at the point where contact occurs halfway down the keypress, without bottoming out, and spam out a bunch of characters.

Now Blues do reset differently, and require different force which some people prefer. I don't know any details of that, but I do know that because of the way the clicky bit resets really fast double tapping can be problematic, which is why people don't like them for gaming.

As for the theoretically faster typing claim, I think you're misunderstanding. I'm farily sure the idea is that you can train yourself to stop pushing once you feel the bump (and possibly hear the click), which allows you to type faster and with less effort, or something. This applies to Blues and Browns. The same thing can be said for linear switches though, I rarely bottomed out my Blacks when I used them regularly.

Sorry for thread derailing <3
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Re: Show us your latest purchase - July 2016

Post by Nekosan » 09 Jul 2016, 21:43

I have reds on my k70, many a time i've wished i had gone for something a little less easy to press. Typing errors like never before.
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Matty
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Re: Show us your latest purchase - July 2016

Post by Matty » 09 Jul 2016, 22:10

phylum wrote:I'm farily sure the idea is that you can train yourself to stop pushing once you feel the bump (and possibly hear the click), which allows you to type faster and with less effort, or something. This applies to Blues and Browns.
You're thinking of tactile, which is different to the switch operation. After the bump on browns you need to continue the key press, after the bump on blues the switch takes over and completes the press for you. The click noise on blues is a by-product of the switch mechanism.
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Re: Show us your latest purchase - July 2016

Post by Mini » 09 Jul 2016, 22:40

As someone who has "Brown" keys... they don't have to bottom out to register. I have been able to find that sweet "bump" spot it shows and only push it to that spot, takes practice though.
Phylum is right in that it registers when the metal on the left hand side touches...

Other than that I can't contribute, other than to say how much I love this keyboard compared to my K120...
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Re: Show us your latest purchase - July 2016

Post by Nitephyre » 10 Jul 2016, 09:55

Mechanical FTW. I *heart* my '88 Model M and want it working again. Stupid Zboard :/

Spooler, is there ANYTHING you actually like?! :lol:
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phylum
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Re: Show us your latest purchase - July 2016

Post by phylum » 10 Jul 2016, 17:52

Matty wrote: You're thinking of tactile, which is different to the switch operation. After the bump on browns you need to continue the key press, after the bump on blues the switch takes over and completes the press for you. The click noise on blues is a by-product of the switch mechanism.
Blues are tactile too. They're just tactile AND clicky.

As I said.
phylum wrote:Ok let's just clarify one thing - the keypress doesn't happen when the key bottoms out, it registers when the metal bits on the left hand side of the diagram make contact.
You can clearly see in the diagram that happens at the bump for both Blues and Browns - as Mini said. Bottoming out has nothing to do with keypresses registering. You can keep pressing Blues down after the bump too. It's just they have an extra bit which goes down first and clicks to give you audio feedback.
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Re: Show us your latest purchase - July 2016

Post by Mythor » 10 Jul 2016, 19:13

I have reds and I bottom them out still, far too long using various membrane type keyboards. I do tend to hit them a bit less hard now. Which is something, I guess?

Browns are basically the same as Blues, just without the clicky noise at the actuation point. As far as I know there's no kind of Cherry MX switch that requires bottoming out, certainly not any of the ones you'd commonly find in gaming keyboards. Some non-Cherry ones might though? There's heaps of comparison videos on YouTube if it's important to you. :D
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Re: Show us your latest purchase - July 2016

Post by phylum » 10 Jul 2016, 19:16

Oh yeah, when i said no switches need you to bottom them out I meant no Cherry switches. Membrane and scissor switches only make a connection fully depressed, or close to it.

And there's nothing wrong with bottoming out your keys, but it's easier on your fingers and potentially faster if you learn not to do it.

Is it worth splitting this off into it's own thread at this point? The world of mech keyboards is pretty deep.
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Re: Mechanical Keyboards and Clickity Switches!

Post by Mythor » 10 Jul 2016, 19:26

Split!

Also, to address an earlier point, part of the reason for going back to mechanical switches is they last a lot longer, which is important if you use your keyboard a lot. Like many people, these days. If you don't usually wear your keyboards out before replacing them it might not matter as much. :)
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Re: Mechanical Keyboards and Clickity Switches!

Post by Makena » 10 Jul 2016, 20:20

Red switch best switch
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Re: Show us your latest purchase - July 2016

Post by Matty » 10 Jul 2016, 21:26

phylum wrote:It's just they have an extra bit which goes down first and clicks to give you audio feedback.
No Phylum, this is wrong. Their purpose is not to give you audio feedback. You can see it in the picture. Do they click? Yes. Is the click only there to give you feed back? No. It's literally a by product of the switch.
Unlike most other Cherry MX switches, the plunger consists of not one, but two parts: a blue plunger (that is connected to the key) and a white inner slider (which opens/closes the circuit). The movement of the inner slider is constrained by the blue plunger, which can pull the slider up or push it down.

At rest, the inner slider is held by the leaf spring. The blue plunger does not push on the slider until close to the activation point.

At the activation point, the blue plunger has pushed the white slider out of rest into a position where the force of the leaf spring on the slider's inclined plane will propel the slider towards the bottom. The leaf spring encounters no more resistance from the slider and closes the circuit. Because the blue plunger is no longer pushing on the white slider, the key resistance decreases sharply.
https://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Blue

The white slider literally closes the circuit and completes the key press through the force of a spring. The sound is not there by purpose, it's a by product of the switch. Who ever told you that the blues are only clicky for audio feedback were wrong.
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Re: Mechanical Keyboards and Clickity Switches!

Post by Mythor » 10 Jul 2016, 21:38

The slider goes towards the bottom but the "leaf spring" is the circuit. The difference with the Brown version is there's no gap between the "blue bit" and the white slider, there's a connecting bit of more brown plastic. That connection means it won't "click" as loudly as the Blues. https://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Brown
If you watch the Red animation you can see where the white-ish leaf spring finishes its movement: https://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Red That point is where the keystroke is registered, and it's the same on Blues and Browns. If you keep it pressed past that point, including all the way to the bottom, it will register as the key being held.

Not sure which bit is confusing you Matty but you definitely do not have to bottom out on Blues. They activate at the point of the "click", not when any part of it hits the bottom of the switch casing.
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Re: Mechanical Keyboards and Clickity Switches!

Post by Matty » 11 Jul 2016, 02:08

Mythor wrote: Not sure which bit is confusing you Matty but you definitely do not have to bottom out on Blues. They activate at the point of the "click", not when any part of it hits the bottom of the switch casing.
At what point did I say this? I never said you had to bottom out the switch or the key for it to activate. I said the white slider literally completes the keypress by moving down itself after the tactile bump to activation point thus completing the circuit. Not only did I quote this in my last post, I bolded it and underlined it. Reds, browns and blacks do not do this, you need to keep applying force after the tactile bump on browns, red and blacks have no feedback. There is no confusion here. Phylum claims the slider was designed in blues to give audio feedback to type faster, which is wrong. The noise, which occurs due to the slider bottoming out, is there because the slider moves down to complete the circuit by force of a spring.
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Re: Mechanical Keyboards and Clickity Switches!

Post by phylum » 11 Jul 2016, 11:19

Matty wrote:I said the white slider literally completes the keypress by moving down itself after the tactile bump to activation point thus completing the circuit.
The while slider does not complete the keypress, the leaf spring on the left does. The white slider does not move to the activation point. The activation point is where the the leaf spring passes the bump, at which point it pushes the sleeve down and makes contact.

The Brow switch makes contact in the same way, with a literal bump. Here are the images again to compare.

ImageImage

In the Blue switch, the circuit is completed when the white sleeve moves down, yes. The connection happens because the metal bits touch. The bump on the Blue switch comes from the literal bump on the part that touches the leaf spring on the left. When the white bit moves out of the way, contact is made and the circuit completes. Now compare it to the brown. There's a literal bump in contact with the leaf spring, and after the leaf spring passes the bump it makes contact. It's the same. It's literally the same just without the white plastic sleeve - the white plastic sleeve being the reason it clicks.
Matty wrote:you need to keep applying force after the tactile bump on browns
This is what's really confusing here. What does this mean? As I've said, you can literally see that the browns make contact and register a press after the bump. The force needed to keep pressing them drops at this point, just like in a Blue, because the literal bump in the key is no longer pressing against the spring.

But ok so Blues do feel different to browns. The way the force works is just different, because of the way the slider moves. They're just not different in the way you think they are.
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Re: Mechanical Keyboards and Clickity Switches!

Post by Matty » 11 Jul 2016, 19:13

Plyum, I don't know what else to say. I've provided pictures and quoted how they work more than once. I can only assume you are getting confused with "completing key press" with "bottoming out", which are not the same thing.
After the bump on blues you have no more control over the key, the mechanism takes over. After the bump on brown, you still have control over the key until you hit activation point. Browns are reds with a bump, blues are a whole different mechanism. It's not just there for some vanity click noise, there is a reason they are popular. If you look at the picture and read the wiki you can see that.

EDIT: Do you have a mechanical keyboard with browns Phlyum? I think you are misunderstanding how the browns keys work. The leaf spring on the browns doesn't provide enough downward force on the key to over come the spring. Source: I have Mx Browns. I can hover over and past the bump before the key activates. I used to do this to sort of cheat on those reaction time games. There is always an upwards force on browns at all time your finger has to overcome even after the bump. As soon as the bump on blues hits, the slider takes over. Browns are literally just reds with a bump.
Last edited by Matty on 11 Jul 2016, 19:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mechanical Keyboards and Clickity Switches!

Post by phylum » 11 Jul 2016, 19:24

Matty wrote:After the bump on brown, you still have control over the key until you hit activation point.
I specifically addressed this in the last post. After the bump is the activation point on Browns.
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Re: Mechanical Keyboards and Clickity Switches!

Post by Matty » 11 Jul 2016, 19:28

No it isn't Plylum, it's slightly after the bump. You can hold the Brown switch after the bump and the key will not activate.
Source: I have MX Browns. I do this sometimes.
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Re: Mechanical Keyboards and Clickity Switches!

Post by phylum » 11 Jul 2016, 20:02

Yeah but that's a pretty small margin of no-contact. Practically is it actually significant? I didn't even know it could happen, although I don't have my own Browns. I've never heard a single person with Browns refer to being able to press it past the bump without it registering as a keypress.

Anyway I guess I can't argue this with someone who actually owns a keyboard with browns :p
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