Federal Election 2016! It's on tonight!

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Matty
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Re: Fleeting/Random/Thoughts

Post by Matty » 24 May 2016, 09:02

Spooler wrote: I.e you think homosexuals are unnatural and shouldn't have equal rights you're ignorant. And you know there's people that vote based on shot like that
This is their right as an Australian citizen, Spooler. Why are you even bothering putting in this much effort to argue if you have such a defeatist attitude about "the system"?
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Re: Fleeting/Random/Thoughts

Post by CherryRed » 24 May 2016, 11:07

Matty wrote:This is their right as an Australian citizen, Spooler.
This, times a million.
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Re: Fleeting/Random/Thoughts

Post by Spooler » 24 May 2016, 12:21

Matty wrote:
Spooler wrote: I.e you think homosexuals are unnatural and shouldn't have equal rights you're ignorant. And you know there's people that vote based on shot like that
This is their right as an Australian citizen, Spooler. Why are you even bothering putting in this much effort to argue if you have such a defeatist attitude about "the system"?
When you say that i cant help but imagine you in the 50s saying the same thing about men having the right as australian citizens to rape their wives.



Just because people have the right to something, that doesnt make it ok. Christ how many points throughout history has "we have the right to do this" caused suffering ?

Also I'm not really putting in much effort just sharing my personal perceptions.
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Matty
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Re: Federal Election coming on July 2nd. It's on!

Post by Matty » 24 May 2016, 12:52

And what are you doing to change all these injustices you are so passionate about, Spooler? Voting, I hope.
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Re: Federal Election coming on July 2nd. It's on!

Post by CherryRed » 24 May 2016, 13:12

Making it optional to vote does not mean that only the well informed and well educated will cast votes on election day, there's plenty of people out there who are extremely passionate about their own misguided views.
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Re: Fleeting/Random/Thoughts

Post by Nacimota » 24 May 2016, 13:43

Spooler wrote:
Matty wrote:
Spooler wrote: I.e you think homosexuals are unnatural and shouldn't have equal rights you're ignorant. And you know there's people that vote based on shot like that
This is their right as an Australian citizen, Spooler. Why are you even bothering putting in this much effort to argue if you have such a defeatist attitude about "the system"?
When you say that i cant help but imagine you in the 50s saying the same thing about men having the right as australian citizens to rape their wives.
He's saying people have a right to vote for whomever they please based on whatever ideas they want, and he's right. Freedom of expression (particularly political expression) affords them that right and that is the same basis for the idea that voting shouldn't be compulsory* (i.e., voting is political expression and therefore people should not be compelled to vote because that's the same as compelling speech). Jumping from that thought to "men have the right to rape their wives" is an extraordinary leap of logic.

* For the record, I support compulsory voting as currently implemented in Australia and think arguments for its removal are largely facile.
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Re: Federal Election coming on July 2nd. It's on!

Post by Mythor » 24 May 2016, 13:53

Human rights probably shouldn't be put to a vote, though.
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Re: Fleeting/Random/Thoughts

Post by Spooler » 24 May 2016, 15:34

Nacimota wrote: Jumping from that thought to "men have the right to rape their wives" is an extraordinary leap of logic.

* For the record, I support compulsory voting as currently implemented in Australia and think arguments for its removal are largely facile.

Not really if something is ok because someone has that right,then everything that people have a right to do throughout every period was fine because they had the right to do so.

You could argue that in this case the right to vote ignorant or not is not the same as no one gets hurts because of it for which I would argue there's asylum seekers that would really disagree with.

I'm not saying you strip the right to vote away from the ignorant what I'm saying is that they should not have to vote as forcing them to only amplifies the problem. Chances are people that don't care enough about the world to be informed about it aren't going to care enough to vote about it. Now obviously there's exceptions to this but I can't imagine those exceptions are in the majority.
Matty wrote:And what are you doing to change all these injustices you are so passionate about, Spooler? Voting, I hope.

The things I can I donate my time to. What form that actually takes depends on the particular issue.

I do vote ... I am aware however that my vote won't actually change anything. I've said this multiple times. I do my part putting in a reasonably well informed vote, but due to the overwhelming number of people that don't it doesn't really make a difference.

CherryRed wrote:Making it optional to vote does not mean that only the well informed and well educated will cast votes on election day, there's plenty of people out there who are extremely passionate about their own misguided views.
Ofcourse it doesn't there will be people that vote purely because people with brown skin scare them and they're really angry about that, but I struggle to believe that the majority of people too lazy to inform themselves would actually.
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Re: Federal Election coming on July 2nd. It's on!

Post by Nacimota » 24 May 2016, 16:42

Spooler wrote:Not really if something is ok because someone has that right,then everything that people have a right to do throughout every period was fine because they had the right to do so.

You could argue that in this case the right to vote ignorant or not is not the same as no one gets hurts because of it for which I would argue there's asylum seekers that would really disagree with.
I'm really not sure what to say here without repeating myself; it's like you're going out of your way to misrepresent what was said. The point that was made was that it is one's right (not just legal right, but ethical as well) as an Australian citizen to express political views and to participate in the process of government by voting in elections. That right is reserved for everyone, including those you think are ignorant or don't see the world the same way that you do. And we're saying not only do they have that right, but they should have that right. It's a good thing, and If you don't think so, well... I can only say that I vehemently disagree and am very glad you did not participate in designing our political system.
Spooler wrote:I'm not saying you strip the right to vote away from the ignorant what I'm saying is that they should not have to vote as forcing them to only amplifies the problem. Chances are people that don't care enough about the world to be informed about it aren't going to care enough to vote about it. Now obviously there's exceptions to this but I can't imagine those exceptions are in the majority.
You are breathtakingly naïve to say this. You need only take a cursory glance at countries like the US to know that this is not the case. In fact I think you'll find that hot button issues often get pushed even harder in those countries than they do here, because parties have to stir up the public to get them to even vote in the first place.

And of course, we're ignoring the fact that actually casting a vote isn't technically mandatory (which I believe was already pointed out in this thread) and plenty of people already choose not to attend the polling booth, or pay the fine, or even enroll.
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Re: Federal Election coming on July 2nd. It's on!

Post by Spooler » 24 May 2016, 17:06

Whether I disagree about the core principles of democracy or not.
And the point you make about having a free press to do its darnedest to undermine democracy like fox news in the states is it's own issue.

Whether they have that right or not is irrelevant as it's almost a requirement and not a right. You can argue that you don't actually have to fill out the ballot paper but if you're already there you might aswell.
Realistically it's not a right it's a requirement of not being penalized.
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Re: Federal Election coming on July 2nd. It's on!

Post by CherryRed » 24 May 2016, 19:54

Nacimota wrote:The point that was made was that it is one's right (not just legal right, but ethical as well) as an Australian citizen to express political views and to participate in the process of government by voting in elections. That right is reserved for everyone, including those you think are ignorant or don't see the world the same way that you do. And we're saying not only do they have that right, but they should have that right. It's a good thing, and If you don't think so, well... I can only say that I vehemently disagree and am very glad you did not participate in designing our political system.
Jesus effing Christ, I was trying to work out how to say exactly this earlier but gave up because the words were not coming out correctly. Thank you.
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Matty
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Re: Federal Election coming on July 2nd. It's on!

Post by Matty » 24 May 2016, 23:08

Spooler wrote:You can argue that you don't actually have to fill out the ballot paper but if you're already there you might aswell
So the system does work then.
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Re: Federal Election coming on July 2nd. It's on!

Post by Otto-matic Reiffel » 25 May 2016, 00:53

Matty wrote:
Spooler wrote:You can argue that you don't actually have to fill out the ballot paper but if you're already there you might aswell
So the system does work then.
To a point. Donkey votes are an issue.

Would rather people vote informal rather than donkey, but that would require them caring enough to know.
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Re: Federal Election coming on July 2nd. It's on!

Post by Matty » 25 May 2016, 01:29

Can anyone actually show me stats where a donkey vote had a significant impact? I see people complain about it but never ever back it up.

EDIT: And you know what it's also peoples right to also donkey vote. If they don't care enough to number the ballot 1-10 down the page, and everyone else also does this (so the majority), then bad luck, it's an issue most people don't care about. This is how democracy works, it's not some crazy injustice. They have equal opportunity to either not vote or informally vote.
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Re: RE: Re: Federal Election coming on July 2nd. It's on!

Post by Sathias » 25 May 2016, 07:04

Matty wrote:Can anyone actually show me stats where a donkey vote had a significant impact? I see people complain about it but never ever back it up.

EDIT: And you know what it's also peoples right to also donkey vote. If they don't care enough to number the ballot 1-10 down the page, and everyone else also does this (so the majority), then bad luck, it's an issue most people don't care about. This is how democracy works, it's not some crazy injustice. They have equal opportunity to either not vote or informally vote.
You could possibly include David Leyonhjelm. He got elected mainly due to two factors, having number 1 spot on a huge Senate ticket, and having a party name which idiots mistook for the Liberal party.
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Re: Federal Election coming on July 2nd. It's on!

Post by Otto-matic Reiffel » 25 May 2016, 10:57

Matty wrote:Can anyone actually show me stats where a donkey vote had a significant impact? I see people complain about it but never ever back it up.

EDIT: And you know what it's also peoples right to also donkey vote. If they don't care enough to number the ballot 1-10 down the page, and everyone else also does this (so the majority), then bad luck, it's an issue most people don't care about. This is how democracy works, it's not some crazy injustice. They have equal opportunity to either not vote or informally vote.
Yes people have the right to donkey vote, doesn't mean it isn't an issue. And no, gaining an advantage (however small) purely because your name is Aaron A. Aardvark isn't a good thing for democracy.

Would be nice if the names on at least the lower house ballots were randomised and evenly distributed, but it would make life hell for the counters.
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Re: Federal Election coming on July 2nd. It's on!

Post by Mythor » 25 May 2016, 11:06

Lower house ballots are sorted by drawing names from a hat, they've not been alphabetised in a long time. :)
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Matty
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Re: Federal Election coming on July 2nd. It's on!

Post by Matty » 25 May 2016, 11:31

Otto-matic Reiffel wrote:And no, gaining an advantage (however small) purely because your name is Aaron A. Aardvark isn't a good thing for democracy.
It's not really got anything to do with democracy. It's a society thing. If people don't care then people aint gonna care.
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Re: Federal Election coming on July 2nd. It's on!

Post by Disco » 25 May 2016, 12:27

Re the donkey vote thing, having worked in a polling place once (and never again), I can tell you that out of the thousands and thousands of voters we had turn up, there weren't very many dummy votes
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Re: Federal Election coming on July 2nd. It's on!

Post by brimlad » 25 May 2016, 12:38

what I've gained from the election campaign today is...
Malcolm: bollocks, the community wants more bollocks !
Bill: yes we have found a use for tits on a bull !

it's still early in the day though :P
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Re: Federal Election coming on July 2nd. It's on!

Post by CherryRed » 25 May 2016, 12:47

Disco wrote:Re the donkey vote thing, having worked in a polling place once (and never again), I can tell you that out of the thousands and thousands of voters we had turn up, there weren't very many dummy votes
Agreed... last election we worked at, there was only one.
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Re: Federal Election coming on July 2nd. It's on!

Post by Ralph Wiggum » 26 May 2016, 14:34

Candidates using photos of themselves in ADF uniform. Yay or nay?

My thought: go for it, but don't for a think a second that you're a better candidate because you served in the military.
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Re: Federal Election coming on July 2nd. It's on!

Post by Mythor » 26 May 2016, 14:42

I think for posters/corflutes it probably shouldn't be allowed, but pamphlets/newsletters and news stories and profile pieces? Yeah, it'd feel kind of dishonest not to include some mention of it, right?
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Re: RE: Re: Federal Election coming on July 2nd. It's on!

Post by Sathias » 26 May 2016, 14:49

Ralph Wiggum wrote:Candidates using photos of themselves in ADF uniform. Yay or nay?

My thought: go for it, but don't for a think a second that you're a better candidate because you served in the military.
The ADF asked him to take it down and he refused. Why should voters respect his military service if he doesn't respect the military's wishes himself?
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Re: RE: Re: Federal Election coming on July 2nd. It's on!

Post by Ralph Wiggum » 26 May 2016, 15:10

Sathias wrote:
Ralph Wiggum wrote:Candidates using photos of themselves in ADF uniform. Yay or nay?

My thought: go for it, but don't for a think a second that you're a better candidate because you served in the military.
The ADF asked him to take it down and he refused. Why should voters respect his military service if he doesn't respect the military's wishes himself?
Good point. I understand why the ADF asked him to remove and 110% agree the military should be seen as apolitical.
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